i just wanted to here all about the old school days of 2010-2011 super metroid from you sometime haha I know most of it yeah i figured you were the person to ask I actually did a lot of research on it too when tssb started oh really? thats cool i was really curious when who starting playing and what kinda times people had back then and what kinda strats were getting found when yeah its neat stuff, there's 100% runs from all the way back in 1995 on vhs and shit woah, just random dudes? one of the first speedgames along with doom or anyone still around yeah there were tapes being sent to magazines awesome any idea what kind of times they were? I'd imagine around 1:30 gametime real slow stuff but they were going for speed completions which was a first wrs for any% like 12 years ago were like :43 ingame who is that by? that's the furthest back one I know, it was a tie between smokey, vopeju, and some other guy then smokey pretty much dominated the game and got :42, :38, and then a legendary :36 that one stood for a while are there videos of any of these runs? or how did they communicate I think the :36 is on youtube I'll see if I can find it that would be really great here's the :38 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXVA_RDzxss oh wow zebbite skip was known back then? yeah I forget when that became a thing and how long has mockballing been around? for a long time, I think all the way back to like 2004 the appearance of hotarubi was actually pretty funny there were a couple dudes, one of which was groobo who did diablo 2 runs and some other games like halflife I think were trying to beat the :36 for a long time and there were claims of a :35 existing from a few people but groobo had this :34 run that he was sitting on and trying to submit to sda in secret to shock the community only to find out a japanese player submitted a :32 a month before by chance lol no one believed it at the time they used stuff like arm pumping in the room before speedbooster to try and discredit the run hotarubi and a japanese TASer named catnap were way ahead of the game as far as applying knowledge to the game * DrDoobie has quit (Connection reset by peer) oh wow what do you mean by arm pumping to discredit the run? so arm pumping down slopes is a thing that you shouldn't do on downward slopes but there are some that are 100% safe so they thought he was cheating to do it on those slopes? or something so they had notions that he was somehow cheating because armpumping down that slope should have interupted his running no one tested it lol..... nope lol different times thats pretty great lol so what year was this about? that was 2006 he actually had a different route that run too on the way to tourian when did you start gari? i remember hearing about mockballs from m2k2 way back definitely before 2007 he would climb red shaft and go back into green brinstar and go up by early supers I started in 2009 woah how much slower is that than the current old route up? I think it ended up being six seconds slower iirc they used to go up through red tower by powerbombs too there was a big debate on which way was faster so who was still playing and trying to beat hotarubi post that run? so there were two guys who were trying to beat hotarubi with a segmented run azor and 072 they were gunning for :31 igt but then hotarubi beat them to it single segment without murder beam all these routes were to optimize igt not real time right? haha wow yeah hotarubi's :31 was the first run that sacrificed gametime for realtime also murder beam? basically he just skipped murderbeam because he didn't like it or something lol what is that? murderbeam is a glitchbeam similar to spacetime beam is this GT stuff? basically what it does is create a verticle line wherever you shoot it that does continuous powerbomb damage it severely lags the game but you basically skip motherbrain's 3rd phase with it she starts out dead interesting can you link a run that has it in it? https://youtu.be/zbuxE7GXRXA?t=46m35s lmao that desc i love that log but yeah this strat loses like a minute of realtime its great oh haha, i was wondering why it wasnt used anymore saved 8-15 seconds of gametime so did people stop using it after hotarubis run kinda? or were they still trying to beat his igt nah it was the standard for the game still everyone cared about gametime the switch to realtime was basically a natural part of racing that makes sense so who started racing this game? like you are kassiuz? in 2010 maybe like one player would try to catch up by not turning ice beam off and using missiles to kill enemies instead the first sm race was vopeju and elminster they raced to get 30% lol haha nice any% races started with me, msds3170, and kassiuz so you ran the game back then but didnt race? ah a couple other people as well like dessyreqt and viett then dbx and frozencup came along I was running the game for two years casually before I found out about streaming or sda lol I started with srl in 2011 when you started out did you have a route that looked like hotarubis? or had the game evolved by then basically everyone just copied hotarubi's route from his :31 the big changes to bring realtime into becoming more optimized came from the japanese players oh there were more japanese players? I found the nico rta wiki had a bunch of super metroid players all around the same skill level as the US crew these japanese players were like a 2nd generation i had no idea at all did they kinda die off, or do we just not know about them now? I had sluip get in contact with them because I thought it would be really cool to have a big international race and they all somehow liked the idea fusiana, emodoran, hypo, hakuten then a guy named toraiichi came and went and then danetch came around oh i had no idea danetch was japanese the interesting thing about them coming around was emodoran was the first to skip spazer because he was good, but not as good as fusiana so he would use that to get what we thought was a temporary lead like everyone was convinced that skipping spazer was going to be slower and it was written off since emodoran was the only one doing it and the better player was getting spazer still basically at this point it was a race to get sub50 between about 7 players (me, msds, kassiuz, dbx, fusiana, emodoran, hypo) hotarubi was the only one with a 49 wait is the run you were talking about earlier of hotarubis not his 49:15? oh ok his :31 was 49:25 oh yeah 25 both emodoran and fusiana got 49 before any of us and then they started disappearing so I decided to rta for sub50 and got it pretty easily and then I decided that I was so close to hotarubi's time that I would try to beat it started out skipping spazer in bad starts to try and save time before ultimately deciding that it was just plain faster once we had strats in norfair figured out what kinda norfair strats do you mean I also skipped ridley's tank in my 49:25 because I knew I was close but not going to do it with that run basically just visuals for the more precise shots like the gate before wave beam or killing things with missiles and psuedo screw attacks ah so you still got kraids etank? and maybe 20 15? yeah kraid's tank was a thing for quite a while we were still doing 25/10 at the point ah didnt hotarubi get crab supers though? when did those get cut yeah he got crab supers I think kassiuz was the one in our crew who decided to just skip them hotarubi and the rest of the japanese players killed draygon with supers but we just learned the shinespark strats oh, did you guys just discover tapping? or what it known and noone had tried it in runs people did taps here and there but it really wasn't necessary for anything quite then not even for like pillars? hotarubi's :31 had like a hybrid strat where he started with a shinespark and then killed with missiles nah pillars everyone used to just go into the room before and do a normal 2tap at that point nothing in the game required more than a 2tap I think dbx was the one who tried to figure out fast pillars like you see it now he was the one who had a more vested interest in 100% where there were a couple of bigger super short charges oh that makes sense i didnt really know he did that category super short charges were basically done by the m2k2 people but they never finished runs on ntsc just big talk so since we didn't think it was required we didn't bother with it fast pillars though was really the first instance in any% where a super short was necessary so which people exactly are m2k2 it saved too much time not to do like smokey and the guys way back then? m2k2 at that point was 4n6, snuffit, reeve, and behemoth yeah thats why i was wondering about that one specifically those guys have been around forever but were basically all talk and behemoth didn't play ntsc at the time so his runs weren't really comparable to our own did people not know that pal ran slower it was done with igt so they basically tried to do rough skill conversions for some reason cant you do wonky stuff like bomb torizo skip real time on pal tho? they used to say behemoth's pal :32 was comparable to a :29 oh right right or is that an extreme case, and its mostly the same which now that we know what a :29 looks like, lol oh haha its really different its one of those games where they sped up the player to match ntsc speeds but nothing else moves at that speed lots of other weird differences too like phantoon has entirely different patterns hmm that sounds weird to even try and do a time conversion then but that also doesnt surprise me yeah things were different back then sda had a pal converter they hosted and they would convert all pal times not that it mattered for sm was that actually useful for some games? you could argue that some games had an unfair advantage on pal because the game moves slower so you have larger windows for tight stuff and then the time gets converted as if the game was moving faster that makes sense oh yeah back to sm story time so who was the first person to beat hotarubis time? me with what time? 49:22 I had tied it before that mostly the same strats still? or is this post skipping spazer and stuff and crab supers i guess at this point I was skipping spazer, skipping ridley tank, and doing fast pillars also crab supers yeah so I saved 8 doors and a bunch of pause menus how much time is a door anyway? i feel like thats something i should know depends on the door and how you enter it well yeah a door with no transition about 2 seconds to be rough i learned aaaalll about doors moving a while ago lol that was basically my way to catch hotarubi despite not being at the same skill level the igt on my run was a :33 compared to his :31 wow its that much off? yeah skipping items really helped iirc hotarubi got 25% and I was getting 22% my igt with a 49 is 33 too, so its interesting how much closer to my strats you probably were than his oh is item fanfare igt? yeah the modern route that most people use is pretty similar to what we were doing item fanfare stops the game timer i didnt know that, i thought it was just like door transitions and pauses yeah that's why it was beneficial for me to skip more items I pushed the game pretty hard for a long time you didnt have the record continously did you though? we toyed with the idea of different routes for a while too to see if we could shave off more time i thought kassiuz had it I had the wr from 49:22 to 47:50 kottpower was the first person to beat me I was the first to beat hotarubi in anything since hotarubi was around only 4 other people have had the wr myself, kott, zoast, behemoth oh, i didnt know it was that few what did you do to push it down to 47:50? better movement? yeah better movement, better luck tricks like the full halfy became doable without gravity jumping oh you can gravity jump to get the full halfy lol? i didnt know that the biggest change was we figured out how to xfactor phantoon without pausing and we skipped ice until later yeah its really hard that way lol but no one had the movement good enough for the trick, because no one knew about downgrabbing so you had way fewer frames to pull it off yeah i was goign to ask when downgrabbing was starting to get used since i havent seen a video with it yet msds was the one who really applied it me and him spent about a month off RTA to research optimizations inspired by krystal and audity's efforts at that time in alttp msds is probably the unsung hero of sm this is still in 2011, or maybe 2012? 2012 at this point and what kinda times did you guys have? that was when I went from like 48:25 to 47:50 msds and dbx were always like 10-20 seconds behind my times I was a bigger grind monkey not so much a skill difference, I just dedicated way more time to doing runs kottpower actually improved really fast in the game it was kind of surprising when he beat me do you know how long he had been playing the game when he did? kott was doing pal runs since like 2004 but he didn't have great knowledge in the game once he became aware of what we were doing after the first ESA, his times got cut way down lol he wasn't even aware that there was a scene outside of m2k2 was the first esa 2011, or 2012? 2012 I think he went from a 54 to beating me in about 4-5 months and he wasn't streaming for a long time he used to frustrate me a lot because he refused to do fast pillars haha why not? he just didn't want to learn it didnt he already 2 tap for things though? its the same thing even though it saved like 9 seconds over the other strat I don't remember his reasoning behind it probably didn't stutter thats a pretty easy 2 tap without a stutter though yeah idk the camera is a bit wonky in that left room though i learned the 3 tap because i really didnt like that left room yeah the left room is dumb I stopped playing at that time because it was kott's time to shine and I wanted to play other stuff I basically came back because I got talked into going to agdq 2012? agdq2013 ah when I came back kott basically disappeared did you run sm at that? yeah I did the same run the best that had been done at a marathon before that was a :42 igt oh yeah, whats the story of how ua got sm into sgdq 2012 and the year before uraniumanchor did a run where he died to ridley twice and didn't know what hole botwoon came out of he got like a :50 igt or something like that and just said a bunch of incorrect stuff that was the main reason why I decided to offer it because I thought that the marathon deserved a better run ah so how did your marathon run go? at the time my best was 47:26 and I got a 49:35 with animals saved I really wanted to beat hotarubi lol I almost died on phantoon too because he gave me one of those super rare patterns and I was really thrown off oh wow, thats scary what surprise is it sunrise? sunrise surprise is the name pretty sure sunrise = insta death in any that's what happened to epiclyepic this agdq or did you survive it somehow? dang I'm just talking about him opening up in a weird place i was so sad for epic this agdq like 1% of the time he'll open up quick there yeah i remember watching for a sec and seeing only 1 screen and :< oh, i dont think ive even ever had a right fast then found out it was so sunrise surprise to* is that more or less common than left mid? its funny because there was a thread about phantoon's patterns on m2k2 forumsjust before and reeve basically said he did a lot of research and he was missing patterns you get hit by all the fireballs or something? and when behemoth mentioned the one I got reeve said it was pal exclusive and I had to inform him otherwise haha I said "shoutouts to reeve" during that run when it happened dang, tfw doing for others what you wish they'd do for you even though I was sure I was going to die what kinda health did you have going into phantoon back then i assumed you did ocean fly? over 200 this was before botwoon tank replaced kraid tank ah so at this point what kinda time did kott have before he quit he stopped with 47:37 for a while like somewhere between 4-6 months when did he come back then? he came back and just barely beat my time we basically traded for 1 second like 4-6 times and then I beat his 47:16 with a 46:58 still in the 47m range? oh missed that last line then the game slowed for a bit again then kott and I traded again for a while I actually tied with him twice during that time pretty funny in hindsight we were tied with 46:50 and then I got 46:35 and he went quiet I kept trying to beat that run and get :30 meanwhile kott was doing two different things what were you guys doing to bring it down from the 47:50 still just better movement? he figured out the big metroid skip the way we do it now or was a lot of work being done on strats still yeah it was mostly just better execution hitting skillcaps and finding out we were bad also before i forgot i was going to ask exactly what else you and msds found in that time you took off to examine the game so you found about ledge grabbing did you add stuff like more dboosts in then too? a lot of timing stuff there were a lot of flashy strats that weren't actually faster that people just assumed were faster like laying powerbombs to break bomb blocks being slower than just using a regular bomb and saving like a second of lag we did a lot of lag reduction stuff how does lag work with igt? igt doesn't count lag frames ah, so were these strats maybe a relic of the old igt stuff, or did no one know the difference back then yeah it was just stuff everyone was so used to doing that it took people a bit to reexamine so you didnt start x factoring phantoon yet, when exactly did that start again xfactor phantoon was a thing just before hotarubi's :31 we used the pause menu to time it and unequiped ice beam or spazer depending on the era thats with the charge a normal beam jump and then equip wave for insta x factor or something right? so when did pauseless happen? 4n6 had a doppler strat that used pause menus where instead of 2 charges and the x it did a single charge and an x followed by doppler so me and kassiuz messed with it and found it really inconsistent and awkward so we figured out how to do it with 2 xfactors instead with pauses at the time pauseless came from dessyreqt throwing out theory routes for 100% and saying that delayed ice beam was faster and that it might be faster for any% too I recorded a bunch of samples to try and figure it out and dessy found that it was like 30 seconds faster so we were inspired that night to all get together and try to figure out all of phantoon's patterns and find setups for all of them